Memories from the World Congress of Music Therapy, July 1983

EDITORIAL NOTE: All participants are not included in the pictures but we are glad to have more people identified. Contact the editor of the series Barbara Wheeler if you have any additional information. Any identification errors in the pictures are unintentional. Please contact editor Barbara Wheeler if you have any corrections.

The Congress held in Paris in 1983, organized by Edith Lecourt, was described by Edith in a separate interview. In this section, some who attended the congress (or in one case, who wanted to attend but was not allowed to by her government) share their memories. Each memory was in response to the question: Could you please share your memories of the March 1983 Paris congress. These memories can be professional, personal, or of any other type.

It will be apparent from what people have written about this conference that it was important not only for the music therapy content that was presented and the diverse perspectives, but also that the true beginnings of the World Federation of Music Therapy occurred at this conference. Just as music therapists were learning to communicate with one another and seeing the differences in the various cultures, they were also seeing the need for and laying the foundations for an organization that would work to improve this communication and help the growth of music therapy. Although the seeds of the WFMT had been sewn earlier (perhaps at the 1981 world congress in Puerto Rico; some say at the 1982 Symposium in New York City, Music in the Life of Man) and the constitution of the WFMT would not be written until after this conference, while the organization would not be founded and the constitution ratified until even later (the Genoa Congress in 1985, continuing in Rio de Janiero in 1989), it is clear that important events in the development of the WFMT were occurring in Paris in 1983.

|Ruth Bright| |Elzbieta Galinska| |Barbara Hesser| |Carolyn Kenny| |Amelia Oldfield| |Serafina Poch| |Clive Robbins| |Chava Sekeles| |Lisa Sokolov| |Tony Wigram|

From Ruth Bright, Australia

Ruth BrightMusic therapy is a topic which has always elicited a wide variety of opinions as to which approach is best, (probably because music is so closely associated with our emotions) and this has led to conflict between the groups. (My own approach has always been eclectic, adapting to the needs of the person concerned as sessions continue over time.) Because of the conflict, two International Conferences on music therapy were held in Paris in 1983, I attended at conference in July, as also did many UK therapists.

I do not have a diary entry for the full programme, but I do have strong memories of my surprise at some of the topics covered in papers, which (to me and to many other music therapists) seemed to have little connection with music therapy as such. One paper, for example, discussed the interests in music of a fictional character from a novel!

My own paper was on a method of recording events during music therapy group sessions and assessing changes in behaviour and relationships. It was based on the book by Murray Cox, Coding the Therapeutic Process. Emblems of Encounter. A Manual for Counsellors and Therapists (1981, Pergamon Press.) (Interestingly, a colleague and I have used that method recently, adapting it for a research project with a group of Sudanese refugees.)

Ruth Bright, 1983

Ruth Bright, 1983.

At that Conference, a meeting was held, when the proposal was accepted to set up a working party to prepare for the establishment of a world federation of music therapy, following suggestions made by Australia (via Ruth Bright) in 1982, (at the week-long study seminar, "Music in the Life of Man", which was organized by Barbara Hesser and held in 1982 in New York and funded by the Musicians' Union of USA). In Paris, the fact that there were two "international" conferences in the same place in the same year was an indication of conflict - and I remember the hope we had that creating a world body might deal with this.

At the meeting at this conference in Paris, Dr. Rolando Benenzon, a Psychiatrist from Argentina, was the chair, and various people from different countries were elected to the working party (Ruth Bright, Amelia Oldfield, Helen Odell-Miller and Tony Wigram are the names which come to my mind although I did not have a written record of these in my diary. I believe that Barbara Hesser was there also.)

According to my memory, the congress in Rio in 1990 was the first actually planned specifically for the World Federation, because the 1985 Congress in Genoa was an international conference at which a meeting was held, and – at that meeting - the World Federation came formally into existence.

From Elzbieta Galinska, Poland

Elzbieta GalinskaMy history connected with this World Congress in Paris in 1983 was surprising. I had submitted two papers from my research. They had been approved and I was almost sure that I would have a chance to present them. Unfortunately, I had no permission to go abroad, because of the political reasons. Poland was in the state of war at that time. I had not even received my passport. My sister escaped from Poland just before the state of war was announced. Hence, my two papers were included in Congress Proceedings, but I was not taking part in it. However, I received the Proceeding Books from Prof. Edith Lecourt.

Elzbieta Galinska, 1983

Elzbieta Galinska, 1983.

From Barbara Hesser, USA

Barbara HesserIn July 1983, I attended the 4th World Congress of Music Therapy in Paris, France hosted by Dr. Edith Lecourt. Prior to the Conference, invitations were sent from Dr. Rolando Benenzon, acting on behalf of COFAIM, inviting representatives from world music therapy associations to a meeting during the Paris Conference to explore international collaboration and the possibility of the formation of a World Federation of Music Therapy. COFAIM was a working group convened at the 3rd World Congress of Music Therapy in Puerto Rico in 1981 to study the possibility of a World Federation.

A group of 23 representatives attended this working meeting, the largest international gathering of its kind to date, and Dr. Rolando Benenzon was selected as the chairperson. After four hours of lively discussion and debate it was decided to form an international working committee of eight members to spend the next two years studying the feasibility of a world organization and its possible aims and structures. The committee would convene in Genoa at the 5th World Conference of Music Therapy in December of 1985 for in person dialogue and if possible the creation of a World Federation.

It was not easy for the group to decide the make up of this eight member committee and there was much debate. Finally it was decided to have one member from Eastern Europe (Dr. Tadeusz Natanson); one member from the Great Britain (Amelia Oldfield); one member from Central America (Dr. Rafael Rivera Colon); two members from Europe (Heinrich -Otto Moll from Germany and Jaques Jost from France); two members from South America (Dr. Rolando Benenzon from Argentina and Clementina Nastari from Brazil) and one member (Barbara Hesser) from North America. Attending this Paris meeting from North America were Carolyn Kenny representing the Canadian Association of Music Therapy, Carol Bitcon representing National Association for Music Therapy and myself representing American Association for Music Therapy. We were able to decide during the difficult debate that it would be fine to have one representative from North America and I was given this honor. The organizer of the 5th World Congress in Genoa (Giovanni Mutti) was also invited to be a voting member of the committee in 1985.

Through the next two years, the committee worked by snail mail (email was not used then!) sorting out the many issues to be addressed in person in Genoa at the 5th World Congress of Music Therapy.

(front row) Chava Sekeles, David Burrows, Barbara Hesser, Sybil Beresford-Pierce, Clive Robbins, Carol Robbins; (next row) Claus Bang, Serafina Poch; unidentified woman, and Ruth Bright.

(front row) Chava Sekeles, David Burrows, Barbara Hesser, Sybil Beresford-Pierce, Clive Robbins, Carol Robbins; (next row) Claus Bang, Serafina Poch; unidentified woman, and Ruth Bright

From Carolyn Kenny, Canada and USA

Carolyn KennyIÂ’ll never forget the day that I received an invitation from Edith Lecourt to attend and present at the World Congress in Paris. Though I had participated in a previous International Music Therapy event, the 1982 Symposium Music in the Life of Man in New York City the previous year, I had never attended, much less been invited to present, at an International conference outside the USA. Of course none of my expenses were to be covered for the Paris conference. But I found a way to go.

Carol Bitcon was my roommate at the conference hotel. And each day we would return to our room and "deconstruct" the dayÂ’s events. It turned out to be a tremendous advantage to me to have CarolÂ’s insightful and often humorous comments about the dayÂ’s activities at the end of each day. The Paris conference was really my first introduction to the highly complex dynamics and politics of Music Therapy. Why was I surprised that this International music therapy world was a microcosm of the world-at-large? In fact, that was my primary take-away from the conference. And Carol was such a masterful observer and participant in such things.

Though the presentations were interesting, my primary memory of the conference was the sense of excitement that we were all together – music therapists and music therapy educators and related health educators from around the work. There were plenty of conflicts at the conference, too. For example, we found out about the competition between the two French music therapy associations. And we found out about "how" certain presentations had simultaneous translations and others did not.

My own personal example follows:

I worked very hard to translate and practice my own presentation in French. I paid a professional translator in Santa Barbara to translate my text and to help me practice the exact pronunciation of each word for my speech. I thought that it was only polite to present my paper in the language of the country I was visiting if I had some knowledge of the French language. I had studied French for a total of six years. So I should be able to do this. So I did.

After my first paragraph had been presented, Clive Robbins raised his hand, interrupting my speech, and protested that my talk was not being presented or translated back into English so that he could understand. Graciously, Michael Dwyer, an Irish expat who had made his home in France, rose to the occasion by standing up, walking to the front of the room, and translating the French translation back into English for the English speaking members of the audience. All went very well after that for my own presentation. But I learned about the dilemmas of having many representatives at a conference most of whom could not understand the languages of the presenters. And I know from living in Canada, a bi-lingual country, that simultaneous translation is very expensive. Perhaps this experience in Paris was the beginning of my motivation to offer dual translations in our journal, Voices: A World Forum for Music Therapy, whenever possible. This journal began almost 15 years after the Paris conference. But I saw the translation problem as a profound barrier to making bridges across cultures.

There are many other memories to record from my experiences in Paris that year. A brief one is the strange irony that I didnÂ’t even leave the hotel while in the City of Lights. Shameful, really. But the excitement of the conference captured me totally.

I remember orange and pink glowing sunsets from my hotel window. And I remember CarolÂ’s hearty laughter, which I miss.

As chaotic as the Paris 1983 conference was, I do believe that it was a watershed in the organizational aspect of our work worldwide. Music Therapy was growing up internationally. And even though there had been a previous International conference in South America prior to 1983, this was another step in the right direction.

From Amelia Oldfield, UK

Amelia OldfieldI don't remember many details about this conference.... perhaps not surprising as it's over 26 years ago. It was the first international music therapy conference I had ever attended and I was excited because there were six music therapists from the UK taking part, Sybil Beresford- Pierce, Angela Fenwick, Auriel Warwick, Tony Wigram, Helen Odell-Miller and myself. Over the past couple of years, in my role as international secretary for the Association of Professional Music Therapists, I had forged links with a number of music therapists abroad and was very keen on encouraging international exchange and dialogue. This was partly because I had been raised in Vienna, Austria and educated at a French Lycee and French University, and really enjoyed experiencing and being immersed in different cultures, as well as the new questions raised by meeting music therapists from different backgrounds and trainings.

In Great Britain, at the time, there were huge debates regarding the 'Juliette Alvin' music therapy approach versus the 'Nordoff-Robbins' approach. However, in Paris, faced with a much wider range of approaches and ideas, our differences seemed much more trivial and it was good to feel that we might have quite a lot in common, as well as a relatively well developed profession in the UK.

At this conference I was struck by the contrast between our everyday lives as clinical music therapists where we are (usually) unique as music therapists in our clinical teams and spend a lot of time having to sell ourselves and justify our roles within the clinical teams, and the conference environment where there are crowds of music therapists. I wondered whether this partly was why music therapists in large groups are often defensive and feel they have to justify and defend what they do rather than being open to new ideas and ways of doing things.

I remember translating from German to English as well as from French to German in some of the discussions and round tables. Of course it was nice to feel I could be useful in this way...but my first glimpse at international music therapy politics did plant a seed of doubt in my mind as to whether this would be a real passion for me in the future. Nevertheless, I was pleased to be elected onto the World Federation Working Party which involved me, amongst other things, in World Federation Meetings at the Genoa 1985 Conference.

At this conference I met a number of music therapists with whom I have been in contact ever since: Patxi del Campo, from Spain who was doing similar research as I was with people with severe learning disabilities, Jacques Jost from Paris for whom I subsequently ran numerous workshops in Paris for many years, and a Finish psychologist who involved me in teaching in 1985 to help set up the music therapy training course in Jyvaskyla. I think it was primarily the videos I showed of music therapy sessions that interested people.

Finally, I should add that I was in a slightly 'dizzy', excited frame of mind because I knew that after the conference I would be traveling South to my parents house near Montpellier, to prepare for my wedding a week later.....I felt like having fun and celebrating and the July 1983 Paris conference was the first party of the summer....

Participants at the Montparnasse Park Hotel. Includes a man whose name is unknown, Tadeusz Natanson, Amelia Oldfield, Tony Wigram, Helen Odell-Miller, Ruth Bright; Margaret Danielle (in back), Auriel WarwickÂ’s husband, Auriel Warwick

Participants at the Montparnasse Park Hotel. Includes a man whose name is unknown, Tadeusz Natanson, Amelia Oldfield, Tony Wigram, Helen Odell-Miller, Ruth Bright; Margaret Danielle (in back), Auriel WarwickÂ’s husband, Auriel Warwick

Amelia Oldfield, Tony Wigram, Sybil Beresford Pierce, Helen Odell-Miller, Auriel Warwick, Angela Fenwick, Tadeusz Natanson

Amelia Oldfield, Tony Wigram, Sybil Beresford Pierce, Helen Odell-Miller, Auriel Warwick, Angela Fenwick, Tadeusz Natanson.

From Serafina Poch, Spain

Serafina PochAfter so many years, now I recall that Congress in a positive way. The Congress was well organized and gave the possibility to meet again good professionals from previous World Congresses or from NAMT Annual Conferences in USA.

As in the former World Congresses took place one meeting with the representatives of each country for the creation of one world Music Therapy organization. In each world congress they beg us to support ideas for that.

Besides I am very grateful to Edith Lecourt, the General Secretary of that Congress because she presented me André Michel, the French auhor of the " Psychoanalyse de la Musique". Paris. P.U.F (1951). since she knew my great admiration for André Michel´s theories. His theory about the great important of music over the other Fine Arts has being fundamental for me in my work introducing the Music Therapy in Spain:

  • Music it is the Art of Time.
  • The type of thinking of the Music it is a-logical, pre-logical.
  • The music can express our "secondary" sensibility which it is superior to the logic type of thinking.

The consequences derived from these theories makes them very convincing about the scientific foundations of music and for music therapy.

A student, Serafina Poch, Darko Breitenfeld

A student, Serafina Poch, Darko Breitenfeld.

Statistics of the Congress (according to the Book of Proceedings)

Number of authors of papers presented: 138; countries: France: 63, USA: 9, Argentina: 8; Brasil: 8, Italy: 8, Great Britain: 6, Yugoslavia: 5, Switzerland: 5, Australia: 3, Israel: 3, Poland: 3, Canada: 2, Germany: 2, India: 2, Austria: 1, Belgium: 1; Denmark: 1, Finland: 1, Holland: 1, Hungary: 1, Japan: 1, Norway: 1, Portugal: 1, Spain: 1, Sweden: 1.

Names of authors:

  • France: Arveiller, J .- Avron, O.- Azinala, L. - Baillot,JL.- Bartoli, R.- Baschet, B.- Bastide, P. - Blond, C.- Bonnefoy, V.- Bossuat, JP.- Campo, E.- Crete, G.- Dalleas, B.- Deplus, G.- Dezon, E.- Didier Weil, A.- Dieval, J.- Dulac, G.- Dunaigre, P.- Duprez, E.- Durif-Varemont, JP.- Dwyer, M.- Ernst, J.- Ettienne, Th.- Feijoo, J.- Fertier, A.- Fourtier, JP.- Gabai, M.- Gagey, J.- Gossein, M.Th. - Grivel, A.- Guedet, E.- Guillaume, JA.- Guiraud- Caladou, JM.- Guyot, Ch.- Helaine,L.- Hemmerdinger, D.- Hervían, Cl.- Invertí, M.- Kupperschmitt, J.- Lacas, PL.- Lecourt, Edith.- Lemercier, M.- Marie, JE.- Mialaret, JP.- Michel, André.- Moreau, C.- Mottier, Ch.- Natural, M.- Pennec, J.- Pennec, P.- Perrouault, D.- Pheline, Ch.- Ratheau,P.- Resnik, S.- Rosolato, G.- Satonnet, M.- Schaeffer, Pierre.- This, B.- Vandewinckel, M.- Vanetti, H.- Verdeau-Pailles, J.
  • USA: Bitcon, C.- Burrows, D.- Gonzalez, D.- Graham., R.- Kenny, C.- Moreno, J.- Sokolov, L.- Tyson, F.
  • Argentina: Aizenwaser, V.- Benenzon, R.- Cesare, D.- Liporace, N.- Sampaio Vianna, M.- Scanavino, MT.- Struzer, R.- Verges, A.
  • Brazil: Akstein, D.- Barcellos, R.- Cervellini, N.- Chavas, M.- Moura Costa,C.- Nastari,C.- Pancaro, - Pinto, H.
  • Italy: Bianconi, R.- Di Franco, L.- Fassari,C.- Fontana, B.- Mutti, G.- Nissim, S.- Plozzi, U.- Savio, C.
  • Great Britain: Bolton, A.- Odell, H.- Robbins, C.- Robbins, Cl.- Warwick, A.- Wigram, A.
  • Yugoslavia: Breitenfeld, D.- Celerec, V.- Paunic.- Radojicic, D.- Radojicic, L.
  • Swizerland: Comte, MT.- Mounier, Ch.- Muller, M.- Romano, B.- Volkoff, ME.
  • Australia: Bright, R.- Crafti, N.- Kahans, D.
  • Israel: Dreyfus, J.- Sekeles, Ch.- Yaffe, T.
  • Poland: Galinska, E.- Janiszewski,M.- Natanson, T.
  • Canada: Madaule, P.- Munro, S.
  • Germany: (R.D.A.) Moll,HO.- Schwabe, Ch.
  • India: Diggavi, MG.- Raychaudhuri, M.
  • Austria: Schmolz, A.
  • Belgium:U Couvreur, F.
  • Denmark:U Bang, C.
  • Finland:U Naukkarinen, H.
  • Holland:U Velthuis, K.
  • Hungary:U Mokas, K.
  • Japan:U Yamamatsu, T.
  • Norway:U Ruud, E.
  • Portugal:U Cintra Gómez, G.
  • Spain:U Poch, S.
  • Sweden:U Jeppson, O.

Summaries of My Interventions

Serafina Poch reading; others to be identified

Serafina Poch reading; others to be identified.

A Case of Infantile Autism

It is the case of a boy 5 years old who was diagnosed as infantile autism. He changed into quite normal behavior alter a year and a half of music therapy sessions at the "Princesa Sofia, Special School" of Madrid in 1977.

His symptomatology was: extreme isolation, absolute mutism, fears, hyperactivity, short attention span, extreme anorexia, quick tempered when something change, etc.

The family life: He was an unwanted child by his mother, who was very rigid, emotionally cold, insecure and very much influenced by her own mother, which had a very neurotic personality. The father was very apathetic.

The techniques used were, over all: music listening (mood music) and musical improvisation.

The outlines of this case:

According to his teacher, their usual behavior was to seat under their table and be absent at all. But he was afraid to be alone. Each time that the teacher left the classroom, he go with her.

The basic fact was his remarkable musical creativity playing musical instruments as piano and metallophone from the first session. Was remarkable his musicality at infantile level, his extreme need for expression, which have been blocked from birth, by his mother and grandmother.

He is now an adolescent of 12, who speaks, read, play with peers.

Presented some pictures of this child and some registered tapes of the sessions.

Notes on "A case of infantile autism"

In 1990 I visit the Special School and I saw him, ready to left school and go to work in a factory. This case is developed in my book: "Caso "C" In: Compendio de Musicoterapia. Barcelona:Herder, (1999, 2ª ed. 2002) Vol I, pp. 283-290. Pictures of this child in the same book, Vol. II, p. 526: pict. 9-10.

Preventive Music Therapy

Preventive Medicine is having more importance each time. Music Therapy can contribute considerably on that part of the Medicina. Music therapist´s functions are not to be limited to therapy strictly. Its functions have to be enlarged, individually or in association with others professional teams, to:

  1. governmental level
  2. social level
  3. school level
  4. family level
  5. individual level

All these aspects are forgotten by music therapists. Will be remarked their importance.

(1) Proceedings "Congres mundial de Musicotherapie.- Paris- 4 au 8 juillet 1983. Organisé par L´Association Francaise de Musicotherapie.-pp. 100-101

Notes on "Preventive Music Therapy"

The content of this intervention was one of the subjects in my Music Therapy shorts courses that I teach in different universities of Spain from 1975 to 1987, waiting for the possibility to be accepted Postgraduate or Master Music Therapy Courses. The matter it is developer on "Compendio de Musicoterapia. Barcelona: Herder, 1999, 2006. Vol. II, chapter XI pp. 591-666.

From Clive Robbins, UK

Clive RobbinsThe Congress was bold commendable, significant step toward the "globalization" of music therapy; however, the lack of organization and thorough preparation created a situation that was frustrating for many visiting presenters. One had the impression that the creators and organizers of the congress were overwhelmed by the sheer amount of organizational management and attention to detail required in mounting such a massive international event professionally.

Clive Robbins, 1983

Clive Robbins 1983

Clive Robbins conducting a workshop

Clive Robbins conducting a workshop

From Chava Sekeles, Israel

Chava SekelesOne point in the Paris conference (the one which took place in one of the huge hotel) I was very active. Gave a presentation on ethnic vocal subjects and chaired a round table on MT and ethnic aspects in which representatives from France, England, USA, India, Israel and more participated. Suddenly, the American delegate asked a very nasty question about the participation of Arabs in the Israeli research on ethnic music. In such a style: "I suppose that in Israel you treat the Arab music the way you handle the Arabs in general". After he said so, there were many French people that applauded to him. I remember swallowing my insult and answering seriously about the fact that his question gives me the chance to tell about the huge ethnic research work, done in one center at The Hebrew University in Jerusalem including the music of all the ethnic groups that dwell in Israel. And that some of our professors of ethnomusicology are the best experts on the subject in the whole Islamic and Western world. I gave few examples and then the Americans applauded. The music therapist that began with the whole thing invited me in the evening apologetically to dine with him but I decided to spend the time with other friends.

I know that this is a pseudo-political story but it remained deep in my heart. The longer I live the more I come to the conclusion that we as therapists do not keep the ethical rules of "treat your colleagues with an open heart and do not talk about issues not known to you, in front of hundreds of colleagues".

In this congress I have known many of the best MT to come. The pleasure and honor was mine.

From Lisa Sokolov, USA

The year before the Congress in Paris, I am thinking it was 1982, Barbara Hesser convened the first International Symposium of Music Therapy at NYU. At the time, I was a young one in this field of established Music Therapists and I was on the fringe of this event helping out. I had relationships with some of the therapists through our Phoenicia gatherings that Barbara Hesser had also created, but many of the faces were new and the event was ground breaking. I did a concert at this conference in New York. I sang in duet with one of the great creative and free improvising musicians William Parker on bass. This concert proved to be a bit controversial and became a catalyst for a rather passionate debate among the participants as to "what is music" and "what is not music" that continued over the next days of the event.

I think it was that concert that led to me being invited to perform at the Music Therapy World Congress in 1983 in Paris. It was very exciting indeed. Some memories of the conference. David (Gonzalez) and I went together. This was the early stages of what became our life long traveling together. I remember spending wonderful time with Chava Sekeles from Israel who became a dear friend. I remember the lectures from Tomatis about his methods which were particularly intriguing for me. I remember chats with Joe Moreno about music and psycho-drama.

I remember that the French approach was very theoretical and intellectual. The approach was so very interesting and yet a starkly contrasting to what was my circle's more hands on improvisational and spiritual approach to the power of music.

I remember that at a certain point in the conference a contingent of us wanted to stop talking and start playing together as an international community. We wanted to meet inside the music. I remember the hunt for instruments and a room to play in feeling a bit like a covert action. When we found some we gathered whoever we could find and spent nights playing.

Claus Bang, Chava Sekeles, Carol Robbins, Alfred Schmolz, Serafina Poch, Lisa Sokolov

Claus Bang, Chava Sekeles, Carol Robbins, Alfred Schmolz, Serafina Poch, Lisa Sokolov.

I remember the concert. David accompanied me on guitar. It was great and invigorating and a thrill to be able to share music with a large audience of musician therapists. After the concert a French woman came to see me backstage. She was very excited about the music and told me that there was a group of people in the south of France that I needed to meet. She invited David and I to come stay at her familyÂ’s glorious compound in the south of France, which was very close to the home of the Roy Hart Theater. We dined on wild boar at long stone tables of generations of this French family and sang at the beginning and end of every meal. The adventure continued with singing with members of the company and sharing back and forth our understandings of the true nature of the human voice. Such a rich time, indeed. The adventure continues.

From Tony Wigram, UK

:

Tony WigramTony Wigram shared his memories as part of the March 1983 Congress (see that section). However, he attended both the March and the July congress. His memories of the organization of the World Federation are shared here:

It seemed clear to me that for the next phase of development, those most interested in developing a World Federation should work together to produce a formal proposal. The group I proposed (from memory) were: Rolando Benenzon (Argentina), Ruth Bright (Australia), Amelia Oldfield (UK), Heinrich Otto Moll (Germany), Barbara Hesser (USA) and Henri Germany (France). I think that Darko Brietenfeld was also proposed into this group.